Author Topic: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?  (Read 20163 times)

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ARC_Commander_Colt

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Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« on: May 13, 2011, 11:49:19 AM »
Okay, in Order 66, why does Ordo say something like "Kenobi is a glory-chaser who wastes too many men"? I never saw Obi-Wan as wasteful of men...in fact, he did a great job not wasting men on the original Clone Wars series by sending in Fordo's ARCs first. The only time I can think of that he wasted men was in the same series, when he went and had a joust with Durge and his droids. He lost a bunch of clones there, when the clones could've just sniped the bikers down.

Anyway, why is Ordo so harsh?


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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2011, 12:10:57 PM »
Because he is and he does. There's alot of EU out there and while Kenobi had a good relationships with clones like Cody, Alpha and Rex, he wasted alot of men. Read the Star Wars Republic comics, that were the primary source for information on the clone wars era prior to the TCW cartoons. Kenobi is pretty arogant and full of himself at this time in his life. Does that mean I don't like the character? No it doesn't but, it's an accurate assessment from someon in Ordo's position.
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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2011, 12:16:42 PM »
I remember a line from one of the Jabiim comics: Anakin asked what he was if Obi-Wan was a General, and Obi-Wan replied, "My Padawan." Yeah, I never knew him to waste troops, but I'll take your word for it. But like Rex thinks in the Traviss-written Clone Wars novel, the man loves to fight.

Thanks, A'den.


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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2011, 08:05:01 AM »
Papa-Kal bashes him too.
I think it was O-66; and Kal makes some crack that Obi-wan's ego wont fit through the opening in Coruscant's planetary shields.

I like Obi-wan's character too. I can't say that he wastes too many men, (I've never read the Rep. comics); but I remmebr that same scene w/ the big joust and Durge, etc.; and thinking the exact same thing. I did not know why they would opt to go man-for-man, (or man-for-droid), like that.
I'm no expert on tactics; but, I'd figure you could wither snipe them, (like Colt said); or, let Art-y do the work.
(i.e. bomb the crap out of them as they're advancing).

I will say that Obi-wan does seem to have that pompus aire about him; so, I definitely don't mind when someone bashes him a little bit
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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2011, 08:42:44 PM »
Ordo and Kal-Buir know what the truth is. Obi-wan and the Mystic Mob in general should never have been made General?commanders or anything else. Or put in charge of military actions period. Very few of them had the training or experience in military maneuvers/TTP's to effectively command troops in combat.

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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2011, 02:43:11 AM »
I like Obi-wan's character too. I can't say that he wastes too many men, (I've never read the Rep. comics); but I remmebr that same scene w/ the big joust and Durge, etc.; and thinking the exact same thing. I did not know why they would opt to go man-for-man, (or man-for-droid), like that.
I'm no expert on tactics; but, I'd figure you could wither snipe them, (like Colt said); or, let Art-y do the work.
(i.e. bomb the crap out of them as they're advancing).
That's exactly the kind of thing that made Obi-Wan look bad.  Honestly, the Clone Wars comics made Obi-Wan look decently competent as a General.  But the original CW series had clones get killed by the frikkin' dozens just so people could understand that the bad guy was a real threat, or just so they could cut down to the known characters.  Obi-Wan and Durge (Round 1), Anakin and Ventress, and Ani and Obi vs the Nelvaan beast come to mind.  All those clones died just so they could get something more dramatic with the two Jedi heroes.  The only time that really pops out as happening in the Dark Horse CW comics was with Aayla and Bly, and at least that was handled a little better.
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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2011, 10:23:05 PM »
The book that introduced Nate/Jangotat involved a bit where Obi-Wan internally thought about how the clones were less than people...


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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2011, 11:11:53 PM »
Then he got to know Jangotat and grew a heart of gold... :P


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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2011, 09:31:58 PM »
The book that introduced Nate/Jangotat involved a bit where Obi-Wan internally thought about how the clones were less than people...
lolz  That's kind of a sadly recent example of "Fair for its Day", considering most authors didn't think the clones were really people at that point, and the only reason Nate was an ARC was because they were the "human ones". 9_9
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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2011, 09:43:23 AM »
Quote
considering most authors didn't think the clones were really people at that point

That's funny. because, in some recent Zahn books I've read; he has a lot of scenes where different charcters are all weirded out by thought of clones. I definitely got some sort of clones are sub-human vibe going on.

Although, I finishing up another Zahn book (Vision of the Future); where their are a couple clones that were part of an Imperial sleeper cell; and they chose to defect because they all have families and farms, etc.
[What's w/ Clones and Farms ? (doesn't Levet and a few others take up farming Krymiout?)]
Either way, now Zahn seemed to portray them as a lot more human.

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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2011, 12:39:14 PM »
And I thank him for that. Clones are people, too!

Oh, and Cut Lawquane from the Clone Wars was a farmer also. Man, clones and farming must go together or something. Maybe things that are grown like growing things for a change.


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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2011, 02:29:58 PM »
Their entire lives, the clones were training, doing simulations for, and participating in War.  When in war, you destroy and kill in the most hectic manner possible.

It makes sense that clones who got out of the GAR would want to farm.

A: It's probably the most peaceful occupation in the Galaxy.

B: They are helping new things grow and thrive, instead of killing and destroying them.

C: It's an occupation that they can take up without much fear of the Empire finding them. Unlike Bounty Hunting, which gains you a reputation and therefore puts you in greater danger.

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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2011, 08:48:16 PM »
Their entire lives, the clones were training, doing simulations for, and participating in War.  When in war, you destroy and kill in the most hectic manner possible.

It makes sense that clones who got out of the GAR would want to farm.

A: It's probably the most peaceful occupation in the Galaxy.

B: They are helping new things grow and thrive, instead of killing and destroying them.

C: It's an occupation that they can take up without much fear of the Empire finding them. Unlike Bounty Hunting, which gains you a reputation and therefore puts you in greater danger.
^That makes a lot of sense.
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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2011, 11:31:36 AM »
That does make sense.
But, there a slew of other professions that could be deemed "peaceful", (e.g. School Teachers, Florists, Dentists, etc.)
Maybe, Kaminoan engineers purposefully gave all clones a genetic predisposition to farming; just in case the Republic re-negged on the contract. But, Kamino doesn't really have any land... [Hmmm.... that wont work]
[Perhaps this should be posted the Random Question thread]
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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2011, 01:03:37 AM »
It could also come as a result of what the clones have been exposed to, both during their training on Kamino, and their experiences across numerous planets during the war.  Commander Levet, for an example of the latter, spent time among the farmers of Qiilura and learned to appreciate the craft.  Cut Lawquane, I suspect, simply stumbled into it: there alone on Saleucami, he wasn't likely presented with very many opportunities to make use of his military skills, but this kind Twi'lek woman who appears to have taken him in at the start of their relationship, was already in possession of a functioning farm.  In the case of the former, as we're all aware, the Cuy'val Dar had a noticeable impact on the clones, even those they didn't personally train.  Several of the Mandalorian members, and even a number of the non-Mando sergeants, may have had a background in farming that seeped down to the clones within their sphere of influence.  Both Commander Bacara and Sergeant Fox were influenced by the Journeyman Protector ways of Cort Davin, for instance, and took away the methodology of a Concord Dawn lawkeeper.
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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2011, 11:47:57 PM »
Could also be some kind of innate kinship with Jango's farming past.
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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2011, 01:44:31 AM »
Could also be some kind of innate kinship with Jango's farming past.

There could definitely be something to that, considering that Star Wars has apparently settled on a position that acknowledges genetic memory as a true phenomenon in humans through examples like the clones of Galen Marek, and closer to home, Spar.  There could very well be some manner of bleed from Jango's experiences, influencing the clone toward an agricultural existence.
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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2011, 01:36:11 PM »
I like the Farmer-Jengo theory too.

An, I also like Xander's point about Levet learning farming on Quilura.

-It's the age-old question of nature vs nuture.

[As an aside:] What's the prevailing theory RE Cut Lawquane's paternity test?
(i.e. Is he the biological father of those Twi-lek kids; or does Star Wars enforce the "no-inter-species rule"?)

IMO, I think both "humanoid" species would be able to procreate.
But, I wonder if the Kaminoans would allow their clones to have the ability. (I would think they would prefer to sterilize their product before releasing it to the general public)

-I mean they all ready put in the 2X aging gene... why would they then allow them to propogate?
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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2011, 11:28:29 PM »
[As an aside:] What's the prevailing theory RE Cut Lawquane's paternity test?
(i.e. Is he the biological father of those Twi-lek kids; or does Star Wars enforce the "no-inter-species rule"?)

IMO, I think both "humanoid" species would be able to procreate.
But, I wonder if the Kaminoans would allow their clones to have the ability. (I would think they would prefer to sterilize their product before releasing it to the general public)

-I mean they all ready put in the 2X aging gene... why would they then allow them to propogate?
Well the clones can definitely have kids.  Venku/Kad and Connor Freeman are proof of that.  But Cut's kids are his via adoption, and Atin said in "Order 66" that humans and Twi'leks can't interbreed.  There's been confirmation though, that there's a sub-species of Twi'leks (might be the ones that're shown with Human-style ears, but don't quote me :P) that's genetically close enough that they can interbreed.
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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2011, 08:19:25 AM »
I forgot that O-66 mentioned that about Atin and Laseema.

And Venku obviously disproves my sterile-clone statement.
I still think it is was Kaminoan oversight, though.
-If you're in the business of fine-tuning the process of growing and flash-training the perfect soldier; wouldn't you root out all potential moneky-wrenches. Granted its heartless;  But, "Heartless" was Ko Sai's middle name.

I did not who Connor Freeman was; (but, I just read a little bit about him on Wook).

-Why did Jengo leave him a fat inheritance? Was it guilt? Was it becasue they were kin?
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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2011, 02:31:02 AM »
I did not who Connor Freeman was; (but, I just read a little bit about him on Wook).

-Why did Jengo leave him a fat inheritance? Was it guilt? Was it becasue they were kin?
Piece of advice?  If you get the chance, read the "Blood Ties" comic.  It's a pretty good Jango/Boba story.
And yeah, I think the implication was that Jango felt guilty.
[spoiler]He wasn't expecting his target to be a clone, and he was even more surprised to see that he'd started a family.[/spoiler]
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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2011, 10:11:35 AM »
Quote
He wasn't expecting his target to be a clone, and he was even more surprised to see that he'd started a family. 
Zoinks !

-I will try to check out that comic, thanks.

But, that brings me to a question that I've always wondered about.
-If Jengo didn't die in the arena; would he have taken up arms against his prodginy; (i.e. his clone-offspring)?
He obviously has no qualms about capping jedi; but would he be willing to kill regular clone troopers too?

(I guess Blood Ties suggests that he would - He apparently killed Connor Freeman's father)
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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2011, 11:45:58 AM »
I think it depends on what Jango saw his clones like: He could've seen them like the Kaminoans did or the way Skirata and Vau (Well, kind of like Vau). Because Fett did have a clone of his own which he loved (Boba) I think he might have respected them until he needed to do what was absolutely neccesary to survive.

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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2011, 03:00:19 PM »
Quote
I think he might have respected them until he needed to do what was absolutely neccesary to survive.
Kinda like Darman.. when he had to kill his brothers who were sent to kill Sull.
(If I remember that right)

I prefer to believe that Jengo would not willingly take part in killing clones.

I think Mia's description of Blood Ties suggest taht he didn't realize the target was a Clone until after he accepted the job; (and maybe it was even after he pulled the trigger).

I think it is entirely possible that since Dooku recruited him; Jengo was under the impression that his clones would be fighting along side; maybe even under, him.

I think, in a way,  Jengo was getting played by Sidious too.

Does anybody recall if in the beginning of Hard Contact when Kal and Jengo were taking; was it ever said that they knew they'd be working for the Republic?
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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2011, 03:09:05 PM »
They never mentioned who the clones were going to. Kal only knew he was working for Jango, and that Jango was working for the Kaminoans.


Drake is flamboyant, and may go over the top, but if he were not that extrovert then who would move things along?

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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2011, 09:07:44 PM »
No, they new well they were going to the Republic. The lyrics of Vade An were changed to incorporate loyalty to the Repulic. They were taught the executive emergency orders, 150 I believe, their whole lives and they were taught their whole lives they would be serving Jedi and Jedi were all that and a slice of toast. They all new full well who the army was for from the get go. Also, the army was ordered by a Jedi, Master Sifodious.

I don't think Jango was played at all. He knew exactly what he was doing and why. It was laid out well in RC Order 66 when Vau explained how he played the long game. He wanted revenge on the Jedi and created the only army capable of destroying them... an army of him. There were 2 clone armies with seperate purposes. The original 3 million which were created to destroy the Jedi and the rest after that which were created to create and enforce the Empire.

I also think that while Jango wouldn't have been off intentionally whacking clones, he also would have done what he needed to do to survive and if that meant culling the weak ones, those incapable of or unworthy of destroying the Jedi order, he would have killed them without having a second thought about it.
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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2011, 11:57:30 PM »
In TZ, Jango responds to the Prime Minister's claims of "valuing the Jedi counsel as a customer" with: "I have nothing to do with the Jedi" implying he wasn't surprised by that. He knew and the clones were trained to obey Jedi specifically, remember what Darman went through in HC when he realized Jedi weren't all they were made out to be.

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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2011, 10:14:00 AM »
Quote
he would have killed them without having a second thought about it.
That may true; because if he was anything like Boba; he was a bad-shebs bounty hunter that didn't care who the target was.

And, I remember that part about "the long game", from O-66 . (I liked that part). And, I like the idea of Jengo planning his revenge; (instead of just taking another job).

But, I still think its possible that Jengo didn't realize, (i.e. he wasn't told) that his army of clones would be working for the Jedi / Republic; and, that it was all an elaborate double-cross.
(I have no idea; but I'm guessing) that when Dooku drafted Jengo; all he was told that his clones would  be enlisted to kill Jedi. (And, if he wasn't told; I think Jengo might've assumed that he would lead/assist his clones in battle against the Jedi).

And it was probably known, (or discoverable) that Sifo Dyas placed the  original order; but, Dooku was paying the bills. I think it would make perfect sense to Jengo that the army would belong to Dooku.
Either way, I think I can make myself dizzy thinking of all the possibilities that could have occurred.

The one thing I'm sure of is that Palp's and his Sith-treachery know no limits.
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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2011, 11:52:56 PM »
I don't think Jango was played at all. He knew exactly what he was doing and why. It was laid out well in RC Order 66 when Vau explained how he played the long game. He wanted revenge on the Jedi and created the only army capable of destroying them... an army of him.

This was speculation on the character's part. It was never actually confirmed.


Drake is flamboyant, and may go over the top, but if he were not that extrovert then who would move things along?

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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2011, 12:16:02 PM »
Does if he was played or not matter if he got what he wanted in the end?
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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2011, 01:00:54 PM »
Well, it don't matter to Jango's headless corpse; but, I just hate to think he got snookered.

Especially, after the snookering that led to Battle of Galidraan
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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2012, 08:05:59 PM »
This was speculation on the character's part. It was never actually confirmed.
if i remember correctly it was actually a retelling of and explanation of his plan from Vau to Kal

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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2012, 12:40:55 AM »
I don't think Jango was played at all. He knew exactly what he was doing and why. It was laid out well in RC Order 66 when Vau explained how he played the long game. He wanted revenge on the Jedi and created the only army capable of destroying them... an army of him.
This was speculation on the character's part. It was never actually confirmed.
I think it was sort of speculation on Vau's part, but the end of the Open Seasons comic has Jango pretty much say, "Oh, you're going after the Jedi?  Sweet, I'm in."

Dooku: "In time, they will be instrumental to the destruction of the Jedi."
Jango: "That's what I'm counting on..."
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ARC_Commander_Colt

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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2012, 04:44:15 PM »
This was speculation on the character's part. It was never actually confirmed.

I think it was sort of speculation on Vau's part, but the end of the Open Seasons comic has Jango pretty much say, "Oh, you're going after the Jedi?  Sweet, I'm in."

Dooku: "In time, they will be instrumental to the destruction of the Jedi."
Jango: "That's what I'm counting on..."

I can understand Jango's hatred of Jedi, but I'm surprised he didn't shoot Dooku on the spot, since Dooku was at Galidraan.


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Fenn Shysa

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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2012, 11:05:41 AM »
Quote
but I'm surprised he didn't shoot Dooku on the spot, since Dooku was at Galidraan.
Likewise, you would think Dooku would not even be able to open his mouth before Jango had him wrapped in a whip-cord and fried him with his flame-thrower; or at the very least... put matching burn holes in his forehead comlpiments of Jango's twin Westar 34s.

But on the other hand, Dooku is a silver-tongued lying SOB.

Afterall, who was it that promised a certain Kaleesh warlord... "Don't worry General, I checked out your spacecraft personally"
[spoiler]I guess techinically that might have been San Hill; but, you get the idea."[/spoiler]
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Rune

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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2012, 02:47:01 PM »
Okay, one of the enemy's footsoldiers who was "just following orders" for all you know decides to turn on his former comrades and help you destroy them. Jango probably didn't ask too many questions?

ARC_Commander_Colt

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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2012, 06:24:24 PM »
Okay, one of the enemy's footsoldiers who was "just following orders" for all you know decides to turn on his former comrades and help you destroy them. Jango probably didn't ask too many questions?

Well, that is true...but when that footsoldier's a Jedi...


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Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi - why's Ordo bashing him?
« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2012, 12:34:05 AM »
I notice that things are going pretty far from the original topic...

But as for why Jango didn't shoot Dooku: practicality.  He saw Dooku in a holo-message first, so it's not like he was suddenly standing right in front of him after all those years.  And Dooku was offering Jango a job.  While Jango doesn't have a problem with holding grudges obviously, he tells Boba in the old Boba Fett series that you have to be ready to move above that.  Somebody you hate today might be your only hope tomorrow, and you have to be able to deal with that.  And then he finds out that Dooku's end game fits pretty nicely with Jango's own ideas and well,  "The enemy of my enemy..."
"To say nothing is true, is to realize that the foundations of society are fragile and that we must be the shepherds of our own civilization. To say everything is permitted, is to understand that we are the architects of our actions, and that we must live with their consequences, whether glorious or tragic."