Author Topic: Sons of Anarchy?  (Read 9081 times)

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dredwulf60

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Sons of Anarchy?
« on: May 24, 2013, 10:43:00 PM »


Does anyone watch the series  Sons of Anarchy?

It came highly recommended, so my wife and I started watching it on Netflix.

And I know I've said it before; but I'm going to say it again:   I feel that the Outlaw Motorcycle Club is a very accurate contemporary model of how a group of Mandalorians would be.

Yes, it's not a 100% fit...but it fits the bill in my view.

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Re: Sons of Anarchy?
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2013, 10:50:08 PM »
I haven't seen it before, but I may have to check it out now.

I am a big Ron Perlman fan haha.
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dredwulf60

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Re: Sons of Anarchy?
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2013, 12:50:27 AM »
Okay,

so just thinking out loud;

Some of the things that do fit:

Mandalorians wear *distinctive* armor.  It is the distinctive part that is important.  It tells the Galactic public that they are not dealing with some loner bad shebs...they are dealing with a bad shebs from a culture of bad-shebs'e who have each others back; like family.  The armor is a veiled threat, even before the mandalorian says a single word.  It projects.

Outlaw Motorcycle clubs have their 'colours' aka their 'Kutte'  aka 'cut'.  Which is the vest with the distinctive patches; one is the identity image of the club.  The top rocker is the name of the club.  The bottom rocker is the location of that chapter aka charter.   This garment, when worn, serves the same purpose as a Mandalorians armor.  (aside from the actual armor application.)
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"Mandalorians believe confrontation is required for growth, on the personal as well as the cultural level. War is the Mandalorian way of life."
―Jedi Master Gnost-Dural

Outlaw MC members have to be prepared to take violent action.  They take pride in not living according to society's standards.  When it was once said that 99% of motorcycle enthusiasts are peacful law-abiding citizens, then the Outlaw Motorcycle Clubs took pride in saying that they are the other 1%.  This is why many wear the 1% patch and they are often called one-percenters.


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Mandalorian culture is centered around family, a clan.  It can be blood relatives or adoptive...it makes no difference, as long as they choose to be a part of the lifestyle.  There are many clans, but a mandalorian will help a stranger mandalorian because they share the same culture.

Ditto for an MC. The members of their charter are the family, closer even than blood.  Right after that is ties of loyalty to their blood family and that of the other patched members of their charter.

They will come to the aid of any other member of the same club, even if they are in another charter, which might be in another state or even country.

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Mandalorians come originally from a warrior culture of military profession. Mandalorians have a history of being nomadic.  They may set up settlements, but it is in their culture that they never expect to stay there permanently.  They are also considered outsiders in mainstream galactic society, for they put their own values of freedom above Republic or Imperial law.

Bikers clubs grew out of soldiers coming back from World War II, who missed the danger and excitement, and especially the camaraderie of their brothers in arms.  Their biker culture centered around the use of cruiser motorcycles, particularly Harley-Davidsons and choppers, and a set of ideals which celebrate freedom, nonconformity to mainstream culture and loyalty to the biker group.   Biker chapters can settle down in areas, yet still frequently go on the road.  Some chapters never settle down; instead of having a location on their colours they are 'Nomads'.

Outlaw bikers prize their sub-culture above all else.  While organized crime seeks to make money, and break the law so that they can make more money, MCs see money as only the means to continue to live the biker way of life, and will make money legitimately or criminally as the means are available.

----------------------------

Mandalorians will hire themselves out as soldiers, enforcers, bounty hunters, guards and assassins because their skills are in demand and their reputations for skill and ability to conduct violence are well known.

Bikers will hire themselves out as enforcers, bounty hunters, guards and assassins...and many have served as legitimate soldiers;  all because of their reputations for violence are well known.

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Mandalorians have markings of honour, such as Jaig Eyes; symbols to other Mandalorians of accomplishment.

MCs have patches that can be worn that will have meaning to other members; such as various pilot-type wings;  the true meanings of these patches can never be known as the club does not reveal the meaning to outsiders; 'Men of Mayhem' patch, for example, is commonly believed to be awarded to one who has inflicted grievous violence on behalf of the club.

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Women in Mandalorian culture are treated as equals and are trained to be warriors alongside the men.  You cannot marry a mandalorian without becoming part of the culture.

Women in Biker culture have typically been seen as subservient and considered property.  This is true however only for hang-arounds who allow themselves to be treated as such, like groupies to a rock band.  They partners of full patch members are considered part of the culture.  They are not truly equal in that they don't ride and aren't a part of the democratic running of the chapter, but they hold a lot of power over their men, and are equally devoted to the club and its lifestyle.

"We did it. We showed them we are real women dealing with real men. I'd much prefer to be living with an OMC member than some dork who is a pawn in the system" stated one woman who felt she and her peers had "set the record straight" -wiki

'Female partners, sisters, mothers, aunties and children, particularly female children, are often the central meaning of a club member's life. In the vast majority of cases, the children and partners of the members are the reason for their existence as men and their job, as a man, is to protect the women and children. Their women are fiercely proud to be partners of outlaw motorcycle club members.'  -wiki.

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Mandalorians must live by their code, the Resol'nare, the six actions, in order to be considered part of the culture;

They consisted of wearing armor, speaking the language, defending yourself and your family, raising your children as Mandalorians, contributing to the clan's welfare, and when called upon by the Mand'alor, rallying to his cause.


MC members have their own code, as defined by each charter, but the tenets of the Resol'nare are there; albeit MCs have no official language; and the Mand'alor would be the MC President of the original chapter.  And Presidents can and do call upon the members of other charters to go to 'war' when required.

A mandalorian without armor is not truly a mandalorian and cannot fully partake of the culture.   Just as in most MCs, a member who cannot ride a motorcycle has his membership status reduced.  You can't be a rank or position if you can't ride due to medical reasons, for example.

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« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 08:15:38 PM by dredwulf60 »

dredwulf60

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Re: Sons of Anarchy?
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2013, 02:44:48 PM »

A rework of the Sons of Anarchy Patch, for fun.




And another in Mando


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Re: Sons of Anarchy?
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2013, 10:52:35 AM »
I like...
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Re: Sons of Anarchy?
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2014, 05:33:51 AM »
Then it would interest you that somewhere in this world is in fact a Mandalorians MC... we wear a steel armored "cut"... we follow a very similar creed to the Mandalorians of Star Wars - Family is more than blood


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Re: Sons of Anarchy?
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2014, 08:20:44 AM »
Kandosii!
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Amy

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Re: Sons of Anarchy?
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2014, 05:38:32 PM »
Sorry, major sore spot for me, I can't say nothing.

------------

Women in Mandalorian culture are treated as equals and are trained to be warriors alongside the men.  You cannot marry a mandalorian without becoming part of the culture.

Women in Biker culture have typically been seen as subservient and considered property.  This is true however only for hang-arounds who allow themselves to be treated as such, like groupies to a rock band.  They partners of full patch members are considered part of the culture.  They are not truly equal in that they don't ride and aren't a part of the democratic running of the chapter, but they hold a lot of power over their men, and are equally devoted to the club and its lifestyle.

"We did it. We showed them we are real women dealing with real men. I'd much prefer to be living with an OMC member than some dork who is a pawn in the system" stated one woman who felt she and her peers had "set the record straight" -wiki

'Female partners, sisters, mothers, aunties and children, particularly female children, are often the central meaning of a club member's life. In the vast majority of cases, the children and partners of the members are the reason for their existence as men and their job, as a man, is to protect the women and children. Their women are fiercely proud to be partners of outlaw motorcycle club members.'  -wiki.

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If women in motorcycle gangs are only allowed into the culture because of their men, they don't ride, and they have no actual say in the runnings of things (having influence over a husband DOES NOT COUNT), then there is absolutely ZERO in common with the very-egalitarian Mandalorians. Mando women do not need a man in order to be accepted within the clan/culture, and they certainly don't need 'protecting'. They are actual people and are treated as such, not just 'accessories'. Mandos don't have gender roles.

Honestly, you must be on crack to see any similarities in this regard.

dredwulf60

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Re: Sons of Anarchy?
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2015, 08:26:09 AM »
Sorry, major sore spot for me, I can't say nothing.

If women in motorcycle gangs are only allowed into the culture because of their men, they don't ride, and they have no actual say in the runnings of things (having influence over a husband DOES NOT COUNT), then there is absolutely ZERO in common with the very-egalitarian Mandalorians. Mando women do not need a man in order to be accepted within the clan/culture, and they certainly don't need 'protecting'. They are actual people and are treated as such, not just 'accessories'. Mandos don't have gender roles.

Honestly, you must be on crack to see any similarities in this regard.

Hey, I never said it was a perfect match.  In my very first post I said it was not.

AS far as women, the quotes given I had listed above are just to show that women are not treated as property as was traditionally thought.

Yes Mandalorians are very egalitarian, but not completely identical in role.  They still have some gender divisions.

Gender meant little in Mandalorian society, and there was scarcely any distinction present in their language. Males and females were on equal footing, although they often took different roles. Mandalorian males were all expected to be warriors, and were responsible for training their sons to be the same. Females were expected to have the same martial skills as males, and were responsible for the training of daughters. They were also expected to be able to cook, and to care for any young children and their home if the men were away. But if they had no children dependent on them, females would fight side-by-side with the men on the battlefield.

From the wookieepedia entry.  Bold added for emphasis.

Amy

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Re: Sons of Anarchy?
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2015, 09:41:01 PM »
That sounds like a wookiepedia writer's interpretation. There are no actual sources for any of that. Mando men also had to know how to cook and take care of their young children and home if the women were away. Mandalorians are big on family, and practically that means that males take on "female roles" as much as the females take on "male roles" - there's no other way for that concept to work. Consider how many single Mando dads we know, and how seriously they take their parenting responsibilities. Yet somehow this isn't seen as "emasculating" or "doing a woman's job"... imagine that, get rid of gender roles in a society and osik like that goes away too.

Sorry, I don't think any society that puts such huge role limitations on women should even be mentioned in the same breath as the Mandos. Just because women may not be "treated as property as was traditionally thought" doesn't mean they are respected as autonomous people. They are subservient. Just because some women like that role doesn't make it any less a role, or an insult.

Sigh. I'm never going to be able to watch SoA after this thread. I honestly feel like you're trying to tell me (and all women) that as long as you aren't treating me like property, it's more or less the same as considering me an equal. "Why would you want all those 'rights' anyways?" :grr:

dredwulf60

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Re: Sons of Anarchy?
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2015, 04:59:09 AM »
That sounds like a wookiepedia writer's interpretation. There are no actual sources for any of that. Mando men also had to know how to cook and take care of their young children and home if the women were away. Mandalorians are big on family, and practically that means that males take on "female roles" as much as the females take on "male roles" - there's no other way for that concept to work. Consider how many single Mando dads we know, and how seriously they take their parenting responsibilities. Yet somehow this isn't seen as "emasculating" or "doing a woman's job"... imagine that, get rid of gender roles in a society and osik like that goes away too.

Sorry, I don't think any society that puts such huge role limitations on women should even be mentioned in the same breath as the Mandos. Just because women may not be "treated as property as was traditionally thought" doesn't mean they are respected as autonomous people. They are subservient. Just because some women like that role doesn't make it any less a role, or an insult.

Sigh. I'm never going to be able to watch SoA after this thread. I honestly feel like you're trying to tell me (and all women) that as long as you aren't treating me like property, it's more or less the same as considering me an equal. "Why would you want all those 'rights' anyways?" :grr:


Well that might be fan edit in wikipedia. but you cannot tell me that I am completely out of it and 'on crack' because it's been there for a long time and no one has bothered to change or remove it.  So I take comfort in apparently not being the only person who thought it was an acceptable premise.  Any cultural write up is by definition going to be broad, with many case example that deviate from the norm.

Ie it says nothing about raising a clone of yourself in mando culture...but it happened at least once.


Geeze Amy; lighten up please.  You are really looking at it with a glass half empty. I'm excited to see similarities.  You are repulsed by differences.

  By your standards there is NOTHING that you can use to compare mandalorians in our real life.  NOTHING.

Not even the Celts Karen supposedly originally used for inspiration for the Mandalorian culture could pass through your narrow view;

They kept slaves, which is particularly un-mandalorian and according to wiki: (which one has to take at face value unless one wasnts to become a historian oneself).

There are instances recorded where women participated both in warfare and in kingship, although they were in the minority in these areas. Plutarch reports that Celtic women acted as ambassadors to avoid a war among Celts chiefdoms in the Po valley during the 4th century BC.[88]

Very few reliable sources exist regarding Celtic views towards gender divisions and societal status, though some archaeological evidence does suggest that their views towards gender roles may differ from contemporary and less egalitarian classical counterparts of the Roman era.[89][90]
There are some general indications from Iron Age burial sites in the Champagne and Bourgogne regions of Northeastern France suggesting that women may have had roles in combat during the earlier La Tène period. However, the evidence is far from conclusive.[91] Examples of individuals buried with both female jewellery and weaponry have been identified, such as the Vix Grave, and there are questions about the gender of some skeletons that were buried with warrior assemblages. However, it has been suggested that "the weapons may indicate rank instead of masculinity".[92]




Among the insular Celts, there is a greater amount of historic documentation to suggest warrior roles for women. In addition to commentary by Tacitus about Boudica, there are indications from later period histories that also suggest a more substantial role for "women as warriors", in symbolic if not actual roles. Posidonius and Strabo described an island of women where men could not venture for fear of death, and where the women ripped each other apart.[93] Other writers, such as Ammianus Marcellinus and Tacitus, mentioned Celtic women inciting, participating in, and leading battles.[94] Poseidonius' anthropological comments on the Celts had common themes, primarily primitivism, extreme ferocity, cruel sacrificial practices, and the strength and courage of their women.[95]

Under Brehon Law, which was written down in early Medieval Ireland after conversion to Christianity, a woman had the right to divorce her husband and gain his property if he was unable to perform his marital duties due to impotence, obesity, homosexual inclination or preference for other women.


Hardly conclusive of a historical society where the only difference between a man and a woman were their genitals.

In any case, I like the comparison to the outlaw biker culture, even if I personally detest outlaw bikers in real life.  They are kinda not my kind of people, and a far cry from the romanticized TV versions.

You don't have to like that I like the comparison.

I'm currently doing an RP based on the feel of SoA for a Mandalorian based game and you can rest assured that the women are very well represented as equals.  In fact each clan has two leaders; a Patriarch balanced by a Matriarch, with a vice for each.



Vlet Hansen

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Re: Sons of Anarchy?
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2015, 09:03:25 AM »
Keeping slaves?
Contrary to Mandalorian ethos?

Clearly, someone forgot about the Wars...
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Amy

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Re: Sons of Anarchy?
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2015, 09:05:47 AM »
My problem was with your description of women in biker culture. It is not a positive role.

Women's "role" in Mando culture IS positive. Especially in a warrior society. Such things are rare even in fiction.

I have no issues with you comparing whatever and whoever with Mandalorians, just don't point out similarities regarding gender roles where none exist. It would have been easy for you to just leave out that heading.

And yes, thank you for pointing out that there are no true egalitarian societies, even in fiction. Therefore it must not be possible. *sarcasm*

You're "excited to see similarities" because you have no idea the osik I deal with every day.

I apologise for the "on crack" comment.

dredwulf60

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Re: Sons of Anarchy?
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2015, 10:30:10 PM »
My problem was with your description of women in biker culture. It is not a positive role.



Agreed.
 It is not a positive. 
My only reason for including it at all was because I personally was surprised that it was not depicted as negative as I had originally believed.

It is like saying that ice water is warm;

It is only warm compared to something like liquid nitrogen, so...

When making a list of warm things...then I should just leave ice water off the list completely.

Like I left the racism off the list.  I understood outlaw bikers to be racist...and they generally are, even if the show makes an effort to minimize it; ie no blacks allowed.

We can all accept that mandos aren't inherently a racist culture.

In any case, I apologize for any offense.  None was intended.


dredwulf60

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Re: Sons of Anarchy?
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2015, 10:32:08 PM »
Keeping slaves?
Contrary to Mandalorian ethos?

Clearly, someone forgot about the Wars...

Mandos were slavers??

Kal always seemed very repulsed at the very thought of a slave army.

Was that just him?

Do you have any references?

Vlet Hansen

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Re: Sons of Anarchy?
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2015, 08:01:53 AM »
Mandos were slavers??

Kal always seemed very repulsed at the very thought of a slave army.

Was that just him?

Do you have any references?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mira first thing that came to mind

Quote from: Wookieepedia
As Mandalorians raided worlds on the Outer Rim during the Mandalorian Wars, Mira was taken in as a slave when her home was sacked.
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dredwulf60

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Re: Sons of Anarchy?
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2015, 03:55:06 PM »
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mira first thing that came to mind


Well I'll be damned...

Well, no one is perfect.   :)

In reading the link though...it does say she was taken as a 'slave'....but it sounds more like a war child adoption as you read on.  Perhaps the article is written from the point of view of an aruetii , where the Mando custom of war adoption might seem to be like taken as a slave.

Going through basic training as a 4 or 5 year old doesn't sound particularly fun.  

Any links to mandos keeping house slaves to do the menial labour and such?  Multi-generational slave caste?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 04:01:40 PM by dredwulf60 »

Amy

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Re: Sons of Anarchy?
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2015, 10:12:39 PM »
In any case, I apologize for any offense.  None was intended.
Thank you.

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Re: Sons of Anarchy?
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2015, 09:09:34 AM »
I'm not sure if there were any. In general, though, the ~3000-ish BBY Mandalorians were a lot shadier and more brutal...
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